tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post6123477064461834091..comments2024-02-29T11:45:01.870+01:00Comments on UK Armed Forces Commentary: Thinking about MARS Solid Support Ship Gabrielehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-52950369891186820202013-10-21T01:36:40.721+02:002013-10-21T01:36:40.721+02:00it could take over RFA Argus as Aviation support s...it could take over RFA Argus as Aviation support ship !<br />with additional amphibious capabilities making up for the loss of RFA Largs BayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-22092804579150597822013-09-06T22:39:32.571+02:002013-09-06T22:39:32.571+02:00There will not be the money to build large, sophis...There will not be the money to build large, sophisticated LHDs, certainly not 3 and certainly not F35B capable. My guess is that we will either get 2 basic LHDs similar to the Mistral class and based on the BAe LHD design or 2 basic LPDs that are essentially an updated version of the existing vessels. Expecting anything more is unrealistic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-8794202267567047992013-09-06T17:04:15.743+02:002013-09-06T17:04:15.743+02:00If it is true, it is tempting. Although the Karel ...If it is true, it is tempting. Although the Karel Doorman as it is does not readily slip too well into the requirements of the Royal Navy, which are somewhat different. Still, there's no shortage of work, so finding a role for her certainly wouldn't be a problem. <br /><br />But is there any available money to buy her? Probably no... Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-89631607850211264912013-09-06T15:52:49.304+02:002013-09-06T15:52:49.304+02:00Theres an article over on TD quoting a story in th...Theres an article over on TD quoting a story in the dutch press saying thst the Karel Doorman is to be sold due to budget cuts. If true it would be a cracking buy for the RFA.<br /><br />Greg.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-6143204100764383482013-09-04T15:56:38.776+02:002013-09-04T15:56:38.776+02:00In the current climate, i wouldn't bet a penny...In the current climate, i wouldn't bet a penny on it. <br />Funding from DFID is something that would happen right away here in Italy, but in the Uk apparently it isn't even considered, so can't bet on that either... Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-61756523500971017412013-09-04T15:54:46.243+02:002013-09-04T15:54:46.243+02:00Taking your comment around no replacement for the ...Taking your comment around no replacement for the Albion Class prior to 2030, but holding out hope (especially if half-funded by DFID) is there millage in simply ordering a 4th and maybe 5th MARS hull but with deletion of the at sea replenishment capapabilities and the emphasis squarely put on seabasing and medical facilities?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-63916684860821573882013-09-04T12:48:18.832+02:002013-09-04T12:48:18.832+02:00If the MOD decides to not have an amphibious capab...If the MOD decides to not have an amphibious capability, ok. That will be when i know that it makes no longer sense to bother with following the british military. Sell the carriers too, because they won't be that useful if that point is ever reached. <br /><br />And no. A Point RoRo, of which there only are four now, by the way, is another thing entirely. <br />And no again, splitting roles will not give you another hull. That's the whole point. You are not going to have money for other programs. <br /><br />Right now, an amphibious force, like the Marines of Cougar 13, are supported by a Fort class stores ship. Replenishment mixed with support to amphibious forces, oh, horror! It has been done for years. <br /><br />It is right because of the limits of the Forts in supporting forces ashore that the JSBL concept began at all. Splitting the roles on two ships would have been fantastic, but it is not financially feasible. <br /><br />We can either build new Forts and accept the limitations for several decades more, or try and improve the design. Which is what MARS SSS is so far trying to do. <br />I hope it succeeds. I certainly won't be wishing for a diminished design myself. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-50203312243133400282013-09-04T12:29:48.975+02:002013-09-04T12:29:48.975+02:00Gabriele
Why if they don't want to have an am...Gabriele <br />Why if they don't want to have an amphibious capability why put in a well deck and a ramp they could use a point class vessel if they want to off load vehicles no they are trying to add the JSBL role to these vessels there trying to join replenishment with the LPD role which will be expensive we get fleeced every time also by splitting the vessels it gives us an extra hullAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-69957049992054365912013-09-04T09:58:56.640+02:002013-09-04T09:58:56.640+02:00MARS SSS must support the one Task Group that the ...MARS SSS must support the one Task Group that the Royal Navy is realistically able to put to sea, which will include the carrier and the amphibious force. What do you do, ignore the amphibious force, considering that you are not going to get two ships? Separation of the roles was originally hoped for, but there just is no chance of seeing it happening. <br /><br />Let's be entirely clear: if the RoRo deck and well dock are removed from the design, it will not be a good thing. It will be another blow to the amphibious capability of the UK because there is nothing else that will be provided as a replacement. <br /><br />And i'm not the one confusing MARS SSS with a LPD or assault vessel. Supporting the logistics of a carrier/amphibious task group as MARS SSS is supposed to do is not the same as working as a LPD. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-48666202748351223802013-09-04T09:49:50.868+02:002013-09-04T09:49:50.868+02:00You seem to be suggesting that by adding a ramp (o...You seem to be suggesting that by adding a ramp (or a well deck) that the SSS would be able to assist in supporting amphibious ops. What I am saying is don't even try to do this as ensuring that one is always supporting the CVF and another on call for the PCRS role / supporting other ships is enough for 3 ships.<br /><br />Confusing the sea based asset support and amphibious assault will in my view mean you get less overall capability for a higher cost. Adding ramps / well decks have a significant impact on the ship design.<br /><br />RepulseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-72936444229482576732013-09-04T09:39:05.199+02:002013-09-04T09:39:05.199+02:00By the way, how is a RoRo cargo capacity and, even...By the way, how is a RoRo cargo capacity and, eventually, the ability to load/offload that cargo with boats "putting too many roles" on MARS SSS? <br /><br />I absolutely disagree. Nothing of what is proposed is beyond the capabilities of the ship, especially not after experimenting how much can be done even with a Bay at exceptionally low level of fitting out of critical kit, which has only been added over the years. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-23783288700047679402013-09-04T09:35:41.775+02:002013-09-04T09:35:41.775+02:00Replacing Albion and Bulwark is not on the cards b...Replacing Albion and Bulwark is not on the cards before 2030 at the earliest, and this is what the Treasury likes. Building LHDs to replace them early is a dream that is not going to go anywhere for perhaps as many as 20 more years. And the Royal Navy is most certainly not getting the money to build a LHD to replace Argus, considering that it is not going to have the money to build one not even to replace HMS Ocean. <br />Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-34162104797988076472013-09-04T09:14:04.223+02:002013-09-04T09:14:04.223+02:00I agree, too many roles are trying to be fitted in...I agree, too many roles are trying to be fitted into a single hull. I see the 3 SSS vessels replacing the Forts and Argus and therefore the capability requirement order should be:<br /><br />- Solid Stores Support (at sea)<br />- Aviation Support<br />- PCR<br />- limited command and control facilities for very small ops (like Victoria is doing in the Indian Ocean).<br /><br />Can't see the need for a ramp, I can for a bloody large flight deck.<br /><br />The UK's approach to amphibious assault should in my view be completely reviewed from the ground up as part of the SDSR 2015 based on the likely scenarios and (hopefully) operating both CVFs.<br /><br />RepulseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-25151948966860434072013-09-04T04:18:46.863+02:002013-09-04T04:18:46.863+02:00I think they are trying to get to many roles into ...I think they are trying to get to many roles into one vessel which will either be too expensive to buy or will be radically reduced in capability we should concentrate on the AOR roles for these built in Korea and build new LHD to replace RFA Argus HMS Albion, HMS Bulwark and HMS ocean/Illustrious 3 LHD's too replace these 4/5 vessels should look attractive to the treasury include a decent size vehicle deck along with a hanger capable of holding F-35's these new MARS SSS look good in theory but be practical they would be huge to get all the capability into these hulls if we built the LHD's correctly we could leave the carriers to stick to the job they were designed for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-67165657068834196822013-09-04T00:02:18.988+02:002013-09-04T00:02:18.988+02:00Gaby
Great post as usual. I confess the MARS SSS ...Gaby<br /><br />Great post as usual. I confess the MARS SSS is what I would really like in the fleet. Personally I think the wet dock is very important as is the size of the hangar and flight deck.<br /><br />The problem with heavier and heavier, bigger and better kit is it still needs somewhere to repair and maintain the kit in the field. The JSBL ships aren't going to happen, but these acting as a replacement for the Forts, Argus and Ocean as well as providing some of the proposed JBSL capabilities is a realistic option. <br /><br />The CVF is no replacement for Ocean, it has been demonstrated in the Balkans that having the right assets is important. The MARS SSS design isn't a LPH nor a LHD, but built large enough it could be bit like the San Antonio class. You could even fit it with Mk41 and decent electronics. <br /><br />My point is SSS capabilities are needed but so is seabasing. The change in the equipment we use is making it difficult to airlift assets; Heli or otherwise. Ocean and Argus need replacements shortly, MARS SSS could just be the right solution, at a price that we should be able to afford.<br /><br />Op3Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-12977667932914668882013-09-03T18:20:36.311+02:002013-09-03T18:20:36.311+02:00Just buidling on a couple of points/comments made ...Just buidling on a couple of points/comments made above (together with Gabriele's previous MARS FT post), is not the end structure that the RN's Support & Amphibious vessels should be aiming for the following - <br />2 Wave Tankers<br />4 Tide Tankers<br />3 MARS SSS<br />1 OMAR (to the BMT design or a civilian conversion)<br />3 Bay Class<br />3 New LPD - this final class would be a replacement for both Argus and the 2 Albion Class LPD and would do away with the idea of a dedicated PCRS and instead bulk up medical facilities aboard these 3 vessels.<br /><br />That would then give us the vital "3" in each area meaning that the RN would be able to keep a Royal Marine Commando Group continuously at sea (albeit requiring support from a CV most times).<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-73947600838314832222013-09-03T15:23:52.432+02:002013-09-03T15:23:52.432+02:00MHPC won't be delivering new vessels before 20...MHPC won't be delivering new vessels before 2028, though. In 2018 we will only see (unless there are further delays) new drones, for use initially on the Hunt-class minesweepers. <br /><br />As for MARS SSS, fitting out in the UK is, i believe, a must, since H-RAS and other kit will be more complex and more "sensible" than the equipment of the MARS FT, which is, in itself, going to be mostly installed in the UK anyway. <br />Design and most of the complex fitting out of MARS FT is done in the UK, and i can't see MARS SSS being any different. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-41957300213983217292013-09-03T11:51:51.325+02:002013-09-03T11:51:51.325+02:00I sadly agree that the chances are T26 and then MH...I sadly agree that the chances are T26 and then MHPC are going to swallow up pretty much all of the UK's remaining shipbuilding capacity for many years to come.<br /><br />Purchasing them from Korea or another foreign bidder does tend to make ships a bit cheaper, and if as you say the class is designed and fitted out in the UK then I guess it's an acceptable compromise. <br /><br /> Challengernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-16414763068273489472013-09-02T23:00:02.138+02:002013-09-02T23:00:02.138+02:00MARS SSS will inexorably be more complex and expen...MARS SSS will inexorably be more complex and expensive... but they remain auxiliaries vessels, so it should be possible to get good deals. <br /><br />There's a strong possibility that the hulls will be built abroad once more, with british firms and yards coming in for the fitting out. Even the dutch Doorman vessel mentioned in the article has had the hull built in Romania... The MOD might once more look out towards Korea, especially if the MARS FT experience proves overwhelmingly positive. Also because, looking at the schedule, the british yards are supposed to be working on Type 26 in the same period. Working on Type 26 and on three large, well over 30.000 tons ships at the same time might well exceed the capacity of the british yards. Depending on how the work for Type 26 is or is not spread over the various locations. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-71347382292623886302013-09-02T22:54:26.074+02:002013-09-02T22:54:26.074+02:00The largest costs in starting from scratch always ...The largest costs in starting from scratch always seems to be propulsion, radars, sonars and missile systems. Luckily these elements don't tend to feature on auxiliaries thus making them a cheaper purchase. <br /><br />Weren't the MARS tankers ordered for only 150 million a hull? MARS SS will probably be a bit more expensive if they have a stern ramp, larger aviation facilities etc....but they hopefully won't break the bank!Challengernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-76813001867539074592013-09-02T18:28:46.177+02:002013-09-02T18:28:46.177+02:00It would take a huge redesign to make the dutch sh...It would take a huge redesign to make the dutch ship compatible with the Royal Navy requirements, which include the full H-RAS fit and far greater focus on solid stores, instead of Ro-Ro deck so large and such a long flight deck, plus fuel tanks. <br />So great a redesign that, effectively, it would almost be like drawing a new vessel anyway. In other cases, i fully agree that the wheel was needlessly re-invented. But in this case, no. Gabrielehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01623558391676151582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-59337592422644432672013-09-02T18:24:15.392+02:002013-09-02T18:24:15.392+02:00I think we should just buy the design for the Dutc...I think we should just buy the design for the Dutch JSS ships and amend it for our purpose for instance maybe add a aircraft elevator to allow extra helicopters or additional vehicles on the heli-deck why do we need to keep re-inventing the wheel Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-74833768468856148322013-09-01T01:10:23.847+02:002013-09-01T01:10:23.847+02:00Brilliant post as always. A very informative and i...Brilliant post as always. A very informative and interesting read.<br /><br />Thank you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-88284191198413394522013-08-31T13:38:30.917+02:002013-08-31T13:38:30.917+02:00Gaby
Just like to say brilliant post. Well resea...Gaby<br /><br />Just like to say brilliant post. Well researched and packed with detail. Am trying to find the time to read it more thoroughly. However, I am a bit of a landlubber and Naval affairs are not my forte.MikeWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-442909239199162925.post-7972292924691666822013-08-29T21:07:44.603+02:002013-08-29T21:07:44.603+02:00Hoping is indeed hard these days but I'll try ...Hoping is indeed hard these days but I'll try and remain optimistic! <br /><br />Argus is going to need replacing one day and I can't think of a more cost effective solution than spreading her capabilities across 3 or more hulls so that they can perform her role on station whilst conducting various other operations. <br /><br />If OMAR was a cheaper alternative as a forward repair ship than introducing elements on MARS SSS and/or possibly having another MARS SSS hull then id go for it as well. I recognize that forward repair is quite a specialist thing that arguably still requires a specific platform so it's the one exception to commonality and flexibility that I would be OK with!<br /><br />You're probably right that the fund aren't available for a commercial conversion to replace a Bay in the Gulf and procurement does often move pretty slowly these days. I guess it means using a Bay for the foreseeable. As you say it just shows how moronic the sale of Largs Bay really was!<br /><br /> Challengernoreply@blogger.com